BMW M3

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xworks
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:38 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro

BMW M3

Post by xworks »

Hello,
Joined the forum in the hopes of getting a little advice and guidance on an
upcoming S40 install. Had bookmarked the "old forum" a long while back for
future reference when the time came for installing the management system
and was distraught to find it gone when I finally went looking for it a short
while ago. Thankfully Google led me here and from what I can see there seems
to be a wealth of experienced members growing each day.

The car.......
A couple of years ago I decided to pull my daily driver off the road before
rust got the better of it and have spent the last while fixing it up.
It's a 1986 E30 M3 and took quite a bit of effort to clean it up........

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With most of the car completed I've now moved into the final furlong,
the engine was hammered together last month and fitted.........

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and now I'm at the stage where I'm trying to educate myself and get all the bit's
and pieces together to fit and run the DTA S40 I've bought.
At the moment I'm trying to compile a list of what I need and it's here I'm hoping
you good folk might be able to spare a few minutes to help me out.
What I've managed to come up with so far is:

Injectors
Throttle Position Sensor
Idle Air Control Valve
Coil
Wide Band Lambda Sensor
Crankshaft Position Sensor
Water Temp. Sensor
Air Temp. Sensor
Barometric Sensor(?)

Injectors

Struggling a bit with these at the moment. I know I want to change the old ones
as from reading about engines with similar modifications to mine it appears the
standard injectors (Bosch 0 280 150 201) fitted to the M3 start to run out of puff.
Also the standard injectors are the low impedance type and I find reading the
Dta manual that they suggest using high impedance injectors with their ecu.

So from what I can figure I need to try and find an injector that
a) supplies enough fuel to support an (absolute maximum) 260hp engine
b) is the high resistance type
c) has the same exterior profile of a Bosch Ev1 injector so I can retain the
standard fuel rail and fixings. (not to worried about the electrical connection
style as these hopefully can be easily incorporated into a new loom).

While trying to learn a little about injectors on the web I've ran across a few
articles on newer style Bosch EV14's and see that they can be supplied in the
same exterior profile as the old Ev1's and am wondering if theres a performance
advantage to be had from trying to use a more modern design injector?

Throttle Position Sensor
I think this might be one of the few elements I've managed to nail down. The original M3's engine (S14) had the old style throttle switch fitted on the end of
the throttle bodies and I've managed to purchase a little adapter bracket which
allows this switch to be replaced with the more modern TPS from later E36/E46
M3's.........
Image

The only slight concern I have with this TPS is it's listed as a 4k ohm unit and
I read in the Dta manual they suggest the use of any 5k ohm unit, I'm wondering
will my using the 4K one result in a problematic lower resolution for the throttle
angles?

Idle Air Control Valve
Being that the car is primarily a daily driver I'd really like to keep the IAC.
The original IAC is an "L" shaped Bosch unit.....
Image
and is a 3 wire valve. From looking at the supplied
diagrams with the ecu I can't see any provisions for running a 3 wire IAC.
Can an S40 run a 3 wire IAC and if not how does a person go about selecting
a 2 wire valve to suit an engine? Can anybody suggest valves they've had
experience of?

Coil
The original engine had the old style single cylindrical coil and a distributor
mounted off the camshaft to take care of distributing the spark and the plan
is to go wasted spark with the new system. From reading around the Sagem coil
seems to be a popular choice........

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and if I can get the M3's style h.t. leads to work with it thats the route I'll probably
end up going, unless someone knows any reason to look for alternatives?

Wide Band Lambda Sensor
Stumbling badly with this one. I've read a good few posts and have learnt that
these things can be temperamental depending upon the brand thats purchased.
But before I even get to making a decision about which sensor to buy I'm trying
to figure out what it is that I actually need first. I think I understand the basics of
how a narrow and wide band sensor work and the difference between the two.
Where I'm hitting the mental brick wall is when I search for them online and
see them listed with "controllers" or little ecu's of their own.
Do I need any of this for installation with the Dta ecu or are these only required
if you intend to run the sensor as a stand alone application for a tuning aid?
Am I right in thinking that a wideband sensor is the way to go as opposed to
a narrow band for the long term plan of running closed loop?

Crankshaft Position Sensor
Hopefully this item is ticked off the list as I've purchased and fitted a sensor
and 32/1 toothed wheel during the engine build........

Image

The sensor is a two wire SMP PC19 and from what I can make out it's the V.R.
type so I'm guessing it should be ok with the Dta

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Water Temp. Sensor
I'm guessing the standard Bosch sender unit (0280130026) will do the job?
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Air Temp. Sensor
Had pencilled in a Bosch sender unit for this task (0280130039)
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but then came across this "fast reading" unit and am wondering does it offer
any advantages in a naturally aspirated set up?........

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Barometric Sensor
Not sure if this is needed or not? Living at sea level in Dublin Ireland theres a few
hills near by which can be a pain in the arse to walk up but there ain't exactly
any Himalayas close by. Do people fit Baro sensors to aftermarket setup's? Is
it worth having?

And thats about all my typing finger can stand right now. Apologies for all the
questions, but, if anybody can spare the time to educate me with any advice on
any of the above or items to add or delete from the list I would be very, very grateful.

Cheers,
Brian.

ps. here's a link to the build thread on the M3 if they float anybodys boat......
http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37916
Last edited by xworks on Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
razzor
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:50 pm
Location: Durban, South Africa

Re: BMW M3

Post by razzor »

absolutely awesome build !!!!
VR6Turbo
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:24 am
ECU Model: S80 Pro
Firmware Version: 62

Re: BMW M3

Post by VR6Turbo »

I don't think the S40 can control the 3 pin Bosch Idle valves. S60/80/100 can though. I would use the Bosch 0280 140 512 instead as it's a 2 pin and we already know the S40 runs that successfully.
It's the standard VW VR6 valve so there should be loads of them on ebay.

Beautiful paint job and the engine is pure car porn, good luck with the build!
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mefmotorsport
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:45 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: Mefmotorsport
Firmware Version: 79
Location: Merseyside
Contact:

Re: BMW M3

Post by mefmotorsport »

a 4K potentiometer will be just fine, the ecu doesn't use the resistance as such, it puts 5v across the 4K part and read the voltage from the wiper. A 5K pot would draw 1mA from the 5v supply, a 4k pot will draw 1.25mA from a 5v supply ! The dta 5v supply will probably supply 100's of mA so there's absolutely no problem there.

Bosch air and water temp senders are perfect, the fast reading air one benefits from being of all plasitic construction so doesn't suffer as much with heat transfer from the engine like metal based ones.

yes, the sagem coil will be perfect, alternatives are Bosch 3 pin or Ford with the oval connector, all work fine.

As far as injectors are concerned, have a look here: http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

you'll find a massive choice, there's bound to be something suitable. I bought some for my 3litre S50B30 m3 engine from USA (on ebay) I opted for 0280 155 868's from Fiveomotorsports

ie... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-BOSCH-36lbs ... 1035wt_906

Hope all this is useful,

cheers,

Martin
xworks
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:38 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro

Re: BMW M3

Post by xworks »

Thanks one and all for the replies, greatly appreciated!

razzor,
Thanks for the nice words, it's been a long road but hopefully the end
is nigh.

VR6Turbo
Excellent, thats just the sort of info I was hoping for. Ran a few searches on the
Bosch part number 0280 140 512 and found the corresponding VW part number
034 133 455B. Valve shows up as a T shaped unit.......

Image

which is handy as depending on the port sizes it looks like it might fit into
the original standard pipework. Ebay only offered up one hit at the moment
and the seller is away till Saturday so hopefully he'll be able to post to Ireland.
Also found this site.......
http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/CarParts ... fault.aspx
which lists the valve new for £58.80, which seems remarkably cheap compared
to everywhere else? I'm guessing it could be a Chinese knock off. Going to wait
and see it I can get the second hand e-bay one, as even though it's second
hand I think I'd still rather an original Bosch unit.

mefmotorsport
christ Martin, thats a clatter of information, thanks a million.
Tps is now signed off on, going ahead and ordering the Bmw one.

Also going to order up the Bosch water and solid metal type air temp sensor.
The air temp sensor is going into a fiberglass inlet airbox which will be a good
distance away from the actual engine and I'm guessing heat soak shouldn't be
an issue at it's location, so probably best to have the more robust type of the
two options.

Going to do a little more research on the coil types suggested to see if I can get
any to work with the standard HT leads as they are a bit of an oddball design
and I'd like to try avoid the expense of custom made leads.........

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On the injectors I've emailed Bruce at FiveOmotorsports and told him what
I'm after (4 pintle design, high Z, maybe EV14's) hopefully he'll come back with
some suggestions.

Had a read of your M3 engined rally car project too by the way and it's looks
like it will be a serious tarmac muncher. The motor club I'm in (ALMC) over the
water here had our stages rally this year included as a round of the MSA asphalt
championship and we had a good number of British crews over for the event.
Would love to see (and hear) your car over here for our event in the future,
naturally aspirated cars that steer from the right end are always warmly
welcomed over here. :mrgreen:

Once again thanks for the help lads,
Brian.
VR6Turbo
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:24 am
ECU Model: S80 Pro
Firmware Version: 62

Re: BMW M3

Post by VR6Turbo »

xworks wrote:VR6Turbo
Excellent, thats just the sort of info I was hoping for. Ran a few searches on the
Bosch part number 0280 140 512 and found the corresponding VW part number
034 133 455B. Valve shows up as a T shaped unit.......

Image
That's the fella 8-)
xworks wrote:Also found this site.......
http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/CarParts ... fault.aspx
which lists the valve new for £58.80, which seems remarkably cheap compared
to everywhere else? I'm guessing it could be a Chinese knock off. Going to wait
and see it I can get the second hand e-bay one, as even though it's second
hand I think I'd still rather an original Bosch unit.
You guessed right. I bought a Ford Zetec idle valve from them and it was approx. a third of the Ford dealer price and it lasted all of 3 months before the motor failed. There were no part numbers or anything on it when it arrived and the ally casting was of poor quality.

That Bosch valve is about £250 through VW dealers, so yeah, £58 should set the old alarm bells ringing.

I have a couple of them going spare, so if you struggle to source one, let me know.
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mefmotorsport
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:45 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: Mefmotorsport
Firmware Version: 79
Location: Merseyside
Contact:

Re: BMW M3

Post by mefmotorsport »

Those coil ends on the plug leads in your photo look like german "Beru" ones, they fit the GM coil off a Calibra/Vectra etc I have the water temp and air temp sensors in stock here...

Martin
V40gt
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:29 pm
ECU Model: S80 Pro
Firmware Version: 62
Location: finland

Re: BMW M3

Post by V40gt »

Many tuners have discovered that the bosch EV14:s are having some issues with normal petrol.
They are supposed to be used with ethanol (E85)!
V40 Turbo DTA S80pro
MSEL
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:24 am
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Firmware Version: 78
Location: Land of the Long White Cloud

Re: BMW M3

Post by MSEL »

It is not the EV14 generic family people are having issues with, it is companies selling injectors designed for CNG and running petrol through them. This includes a certain brand of well known 2000cc injectors.

Remember, EV14 is the packaging/form factor of the injector, not what is inside it.
xworks
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:38 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro

Re: BMW M3

Post by xworks »

Morning folks,
Back again for a little help as the project crawls forward.
Have managed to get a little more work done on the management
side of things since the last post and ticked a few more items off
the list.

Wasted spark coil is mounted.........

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Vw 2 pin idle control valve is in and plumbed up.........

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Throttle position sensor is ready for action..........

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Air temp. sensor's in........

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FiveOmotorsport supplied some 36lb Denso high resistance injectors that are
externally the same dimensions and use the same electrical connector as the
original Bosch Ev1 injectors the car came with.........

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and managed to pick up a PLX wideband sensor and controler........

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Which brings me to the final hurdle. Managed to get talking to the person whom
will most likely be mapping the engine for me when finished and he has suggested
plumbing in a map sensor along with the throttle position sensor to help with
getting as smooth as possible a map for low throttle openings to help with
busy city driving.

And therein lies my question. My knowledge of aftermarket management in this
area is embarrassingly small. While I can figure out how the throttle position
sensor is used for a load measurement I'm completely in the dark when it
comes to utilising both TPS and Map sensor for load readings.
I would be extremely grateful if anybody could share some wisdom on how this
setup actually works in real time?

The other thing I'd be grateful for is if anyone could recommend a map sensor
for my application. I've read in the Dta installation book the two sensors listed
MARELLI APS05/01 and PRT03/01 and am guessing of the two the second one
would be more suitable for my installation as the engine is naturally aspirated,
whereas I'm guessing the APS05/01 sensor that reads up to 3 bar would be
for forced induction setups?

Again any pearls of wisdom are appreciated.

Thank you,

Brian.
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